tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post8512151352638983546..comments2024-02-02T12:19:39.504-07:00Comments on V for Victory!: Neither O.P.L. nor T.O.P. Be, But Straight O.P. -- See?Anita Moorehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-65973816024302781592017-11-15T18:38:42.690-07:002017-11-15T18:38:42.690-07:00Yes, but these nuns only actually came under the D...Yes, but these nuns only actually came under the Dominican umbrella after the friars were founded and under a successor of St. Dominic.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-52116091236239924362017-11-15T17:00:11.893-07:002017-11-15T17:00:11.893-07:00St Dominic first founded the order of nuns at Prou...St Dominic first founded the order of nuns at Prouille, France before he organized any men. Reread your copy of "The Life of St. Dominic" by Bede Jarrett. <br /><br />-Another OPLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-49905695724832445762012-09-01T12:59:01.690-06:002012-09-01T12:59:01.690-06:00Just a little correction of my claim that "T....Just a little correction of my claim that "T.O.P. can signify a Lay Franciscan as well" [as a Lay Dominican]. A Franciscan friar (OFM) asked around for me, and he reports that he has found no indication that "T.O.P." has ever been used in the Franciscan family.<br />Grimkjellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316621446917152311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-15196762693078732322012-08-31T22:26:05.817-06:002012-08-31T22:26:05.817-06:00All the Orders are engaging in similar reforms, gi...All the Orders are engaging in similar reforms, given Vatican II's teachings regarding the laity. The OCDS have recently re-reformed to emphasize that we are part of the same order as the Friars and Nuns, since the Carmelites don't have an official distinction between "first and second" orders. On the other hand, the Franciscans apparently have taken the SFO out from under the direct control of the First Order since the emphasize the equality of the First and Second.<br /><br />I can see what you're saying about possible confusion, but does it really matter if someone confuses a diocesan priest in a secular order with a religious priest?<br /><br />I find that people get confused sometimes when I use the initials OCDS, anyway. They think I'm a priest, or at least a monk, or they think I'm advertising that I have a mental health problem. We're really only supposed to use the initials when we're doing the work of our Orders or engaged in our apostolates (which may include our jobs, blogs and/or Facebook). So any situation where we are allowed to use the initials would be one where such confusion is easily dispelled.<br /><br />And, as it is, how many people think Catherine of Siena was a nun?John C. Hathawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05272753692878529218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-51468724049770362662012-08-31T22:20:54.140-06:002012-08-31T22:20:54.140-06:00Among the Discalced Carmelites, because there has ...Among the Discalced Carmelites, because there has never been a distinction between the friars and nuns as "first" and "second" orders, there was a similar reform recently to emphasize that the OCDS is part of the same Order under the same Rule of Life.<br />Conversely, I've heard that the SFO have answered the "call of Vatican II" by emphasizing their distinctness from the first and second order Franciscans, and since the Second order isn't 'under' the First Order, the Third Order shouldn't be, either.<br /><br />I can see what you're saying, but I think the "confusion" factor is going to exist either way. People see "OCDS" after my name and they think I'm a religious, a priest, or an obsessive-compulsive advertising my mental illness. <br /><br />However, part of the answer is that Seculars are generally supposed to reserve the signs of our Orders to when we are engaged in the work of the Order. So we're really only supposed to use the initials within the order, or when engaging in an apostolate we're doing for the sake of the order (i.e., blogging) or maybe parish work. So any situation we would be using the initials would be one where any possible confusion would be easily rectified.<br /><br />And I don't think it's *that* big a deal if someone confuses a diocesan priest who's in a Secular Order with a religious priest. They're both still priests.John C. Hathawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05272753692878529218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-80976737193890014212011-09-06T14:04:00.804-06:002011-09-06T14:04:00.804-06:00Thanks! I'll order your book - I already have ...Thanks! I'll order your book - I already have the other one. <br /><br /><i>I was very sad to see the ancient form "Order of Penance" dropped. But I respect the autonomy of the Dominican laity in these matters.</i><br /><br />Well, I think that only a very small minority had much of a say in these matters - at least at first. The Rule of 1964 (where the most important change since the 1923 Rule was that "Study" was now introduced as a priority) was not allowed to stand because the three French provinces (Paris, Lyon, Toulouse) submitted a protest to the General Chapter of 1965 (Bogota), seconded by the South Belgian province. <br /><br />So, it was the wish of the Francophone Dominican tertiaries in Europe. The majority never had a say, neither those kept behind the iron curtain (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Croatia) or the Vietnamese (who all by themselves made up - and still make up - the majority of Dominican tertiaries / Lay Dominicans on this planet). <br /><br />This protest led the General Chapter to start the Rule work from scratch, concluding with the Rule of 1969. The international meeting in Montréal 1985 more or less kept the 1969 Rule, and our current Rule was then promulgated in 1987. <br /><br />I have seen no Acts of the Montréal meeting, so I have no idea of how representative it was - and what issues they discussed. Would be interesting to see the Acts - do anyone have a copy?Grimkjellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316621446917152311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-5489339549172577532011-09-06T08:53:24.213-06:002011-09-06T08:53:24.213-06:00Actually, the "Order of Penance" much pr...Actually, the "Order of Penance" much predates both St. Dominic and St. Francis. It was the first "order" for lay people and began in Italy in the 1180s. All lay penitents were members of the "Brothers and Sisters of Penance" (no order specification) until the Franciscan Fra Caro tried to subordinate them all to the Franciscan friars in the 1280s.<br /><br />But many local groups resisted this Franciscanization and established informal links with the other mendicant orders. The groups that had Dominican spiritual directors and wore Dominican "colors" became know as the Black Penitents (like "Black Friars) or the "Dominican Penitents. But they kept their independence until they were aggregated to the order in the early 1400s, principally through the efforts of the biographer of St. Catherine (a "Black Penitent" or "Mantellata") in the early 1400s. He also composed the so-called "Rule of Munio of Zamora." The group then become know as the "Dominican Third Order of Penance" == T.O.P.<br /><br />You can read about this in my book, _Cities of God: The Religion of the Italian Communes, 1125-1325_, chapter 2. And in the wonderful collection of texts _Dominican Penitent Women_. Both are available on Amazon.<br /><br />I was very sad to see the ancient form "Order of Penance" dropped. But I respect the autonomy of the Dominican laity in these matters.Fr. Augustine Thompson, O.P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13650004591673135663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-67401676889518454752011-01-03T07:33:27.823-07:002011-01-03T07:33:27.823-07:00Also BTW, "OPL" was never considered out...Also BTW, "OPL" was never considered outside the English province and some American provinces. It never gained a foothold in any European province apart from England. In the Polish province, they suggested using "OPs" (s for secular). Elsewhere, the only options considered were TOP and OP.<br /><br />- Jan FrederikGrimkjellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316621446917152311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-5782256949983078562011-01-03T07:26:48.618-07:002011-01-03T07:26:48.618-07:00Coming to think of it, I have seen T.O.P. used on ...Coming to think of it, I <i>have</i> seen T.O.P. used on some old lists - namely, lists of residents of a French friars' convent! Apparently, they had some resident tertiaries - like conventual oblates.<br /><br />Personally, I think it's OK for Lay Dominicans to use O.P. - if we are to use anything at all. But perhaps only if we wear the habit as well?;-) I note that in the obituaries in the Danish Catholic weekly in the 1950s and later, the fact that very active and well-known Catholics were tertiaries is _never_ mentioned. The question is whether we Lay Dominicans should go around wearing ANY "letter habit" around at all...<br /><br />BTW, the Dominican nuns were granted the right to use OP (instead of OSD) in the 1860s or thereabouts, and the Dominican sisters of apostolic life (third order regular...) were granted the same right in 1923 if I'm not mistaken.Grimkjellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316621446917152311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-91227230681756948512011-01-02T13:00:27.084-07:002011-01-02T13:00:27.084-07:00Hello Anita:
One thing you can summarily conclu...Hello Anita: <br /><br />One thing you can summarily conclude per history and correspondingly, Mr. Solem's letter, is that the tertiaries did not use the designation "O.P." prior to 1960. The term "third order" was often in use, i.e. Schillebeekx' work entitled "Old and New Style" c. 1960. It is not a stretch to believe T.O.P. predated Schillebeekx' writing. Whatever the custom, the term "third order" was used. <br /><br />The designations T.O.P. and O.P.L. are normative because each reflect a role of the Laity. <br /><br />While we are all one family, it is certain that there is a distinction within the family, as Christ is head of the Church and we are members of His Body. The use of O.P. or O.P.L. does not make the Order of Preachers any more or less a family.<br /><br />While I wholeheartedly agree we are one family, the use of O.P. by every person in the family misleads others to believe that we share in the same role and headship role of the family. <br /><br />The controversy over the lay use of the term, O.P., is not yet history. It also has an ironic and humorous side to it as well.<br /><br />Happy New Year!<br /><br />Dr. John Keenan, O.P.[L.]John Keenan, OPLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07514688769709402691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-70006158296035321942011-01-01T13:35:24.081-07:002011-01-01T13:35:24.081-07:00Hi Anita,
I think T.O.P. has never stood for &quo...Hi Anita,<br /><br />I think T.O.P. has never stood for "Third Order of Preachers"; rather it stands for "Tertia Ordo Penitentiae" (Third Order of Penance) - because this is how they refer to us in the Acts of General Chapter in the early 20th Century! Thus T.O.P. can signify a Lay Franciscan as well...<br /><br />A clue is found in a handbook for tertiaries, fr. Roland Potter OP: "A Dominican way" (London, 1958). In the chapter "The avoidance of worldliness" we can read:<br /><br />'Really wordly people don't become Tertiaries (...) So, normally, we never have the right to suspect of fellow-Tertiaries of being "worldly", even as we have, with our own eyes, seen Timothy Snookes, T.O.S.D., entering a cinema or diving into a bar.'<br /><br />In fact, I suspect that tertiaries where not in the habit ;-) of using neither the abbreviation T.O.P. or T.O.S.D. after their names in the old days! I would like to know of any known parish newsletter article, letter, or anything, where any Dominican tertiary used TOP after his/her name before 1960? The first proven observation of a "lettered" tertiary!<br /><br />Happy New Year,<br />Mr. Jan Frederik Solem, O.P.Grimkjellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12316621446917152311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-25567710838654382482010-12-29T12:03:06.666-07:002010-12-29T12:03:06.666-07:00Hi Anita and Faith,
I see the points that both of...Hi Anita and Faith,<br /><br />I see the points that both of you have raised; To some extent, I can see both sides of the debate, but there is no doubt that the new form creates unneeded ambiguity, particularly with regard to Third Order priests, as Anita pointed out. But I am a relatively new Dominican, and so I feel that I do not have the experience necessary to present a weighty opinion about the matter.<br /><br />But what I do know is that we in the Southern Province, being relatively new, were in a limbo state on this and other matters for quite some time. I saw that having a definitive decision that could be consistently enforced was a positive development for us. But who knows whether it will change in the future!<br /><br />Gratia vobis et Pax,<br />Mr. Alan Phipps, O.P.Alan Phippshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12007722006477331382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-15186613356202418052010-12-28T10:39:06.582-07:002010-12-28T10:39:06.582-07:00Well...but there IS a difference between priests a...Well...but there IS a difference between priests and laity, and between nuns and persons out in the world. I do not possess the awesome dignity and immense power that a priest possesses, and I never will. This is a fact. It is a fact even if the priest is the worst scoundrel on the planet, and I am the holiest person short of the Mother of God. To recognize this fact is to serve the truth. To try to obscure the fact does not.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-2060552522402248882010-12-20T05:11:33.579-07:002010-12-20T05:11:33.579-07:00We in the Eastern Province of St. Joseph had the s...We in the Eastern Province of St. Joseph had the same reaction, two years ago. I, for one, have gotten use to it. In fact, now I'm proud of it. I belong to an Family that sees no difference between its members. It's particularly attractive to my chapter, Our Lady of Mercy, because we follow the spirituality of Pere M. Jean-Joseph Lataste, OP. Pere Lataste saw no difference between the prisoner and the priest.Faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13945662015612932618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-43074770548656493542010-12-19T17:43:26.073-07:002010-12-19T17:43:26.073-07:00St. Dominic founded a monastery for women in about...St. Dominic founded a monastery for women in about 1205, before the Order of Preachers was solemnly approved; but nuns were not brought under the government of the Order until much later. See:<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12354c.htmAnita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-81003925194665114562010-12-19T15:49:15.010-07:002010-12-19T15:49:15.010-07:00Was it not the case that the moniales were establi...Was it not the case that the moniales were established before the friars?Cazienza Puellaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05043737690963051227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-59222733954460831442010-12-17T09:26:45.841-07:002010-12-17T09:26:45.841-07:00Exactly. Or as I would put it, tell them to chang...Exactly. Or as I would put it, tell them to change their diapers and move on.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31669215.post-69848862421684611762010-12-17T06:59:36.889-07:002010-12-17T06:59:36.889-07:00Why is it that liberals with their britches all tw...Why is it that liberals with their britches all twisted don't ever have someone come along and stuff said twisted britches down their throats to keep them from doing any more damage to the rest of us?Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.com